Ottomanska

[testing1]

Tjena...

Jag har en fråga. Turkarna började som jag fattat det att resna ut persiska och arabiska från ottomanskan på 20-30 talet. Enligt vad jag läst så kan dagens turkar knappt, eller snarare inte alls förstå vad som sades vid tv-inspelningar från tal osv. från den tiden. Nu till frågan: Är det någon som har hittat en sida eller liknande där man kan höra ottomanskan som den var på denna tiden?

[Oceanic815]

Vad jag vet, så kan vi turkar inte läsa osmanska skrifter men vi skulle kunna prata med dem, dock använder gammalturkiskan många ord som inte längre finns men jag tror det skulle gå att förstå dem. Du ska få länkar till två av osmanska militärbandet "Mehter" sånger som är mycket gamla. Det jag menar är att jag förstår 90 % av låten men endast få ord låter mer som arabiska än min turkiska. fast skulle dem skriva denna marsch på gammalturkiska skulle jag nog inte kunna läsa det. Gammalturkiskan är väl en blandning av turkiska, persiska och arabiska. Och dessa marscher innehåller många ord som fortfarande finns i dagens turkiska men som likväl har ursprung från persiska och arabiskan. Vi har i princip bara bytt till latinska bokstäver.

Merd är "man" på gammalturkiska och orginalet kommer från Mard på persiska. Men det betyder inte att turkarna skulle förstå ordet dagens turkar använder för Man vilket är Adam.

Här kan du lyssna på två av Mehters mest kända marschsånger (Dem är i mp3 format och jag har zippat dem, ladda hem dem, zippa upp och lyssna, tillsammans är filerna 3.7 mb stor. Den första heter Gamla Arméns Marsch och den andra heter Ceddin Deden. Och nedan följer sångtexten med om du känner för att sjunga med!


http://hem.passagen.se/bedrettin/download/

ESKI ORDU MARSI (Min favorit!)

Ey sanli ordu,ey sanli asker
Haydi gazanfer, umman-i safter

Ey sanli ordu,ey sanli asker
Haydi gazanfer, umman-i safter

Bir elde kalkan, bir elde hançer
Serhadde dogru ey sanli asker.

Bir elde kalkan, bir elde hançer
Serhadde dogru ey sanli asker.

Deryada olsa hersey muzaffer
Dillerde tekbir, Allahü ekber

Deryada olsa hersey muzaffer
Dillerde tekbir, Allahü ekber

Allahü ekber, Allahü ekber
Ordumuz olsun daim muzaffer.

-----------------------------------

CEDDIN DEDEN

Ceddin deden, neslin baban
Hep kahraman Türk milleti
Ordularin, pekçok zaman
Vermistiler dünyaya san.

Türk milleti, Türk milleti
Ask ile sev milliyeti
Kahret vatan düsmanini
Çeksin o mel’un zilleti.

[testing1]

Ok, tack för svaret Jag har faktiskt ett par av Mehter-bandets låtar. Jag tycker dock att CEDDIN DEDEN är lite fränare. En annan låt (som jag inte vet namnet på) tycker jag dock är ännu lite rivigare än de båda du hänvisar till, men låttiteln kommer inte upp i spelaren. Jag ska spåna lite och återkommer när jag vet vad den heter.

Jag kan förstå att det var med skräckblandad förtjusning som man gick in i en drabbning, samtidigt som man hörde fiendens orkester trumma ut denna musik. Ha ha, spelade alltid Mehter-orkestern vid drabbningar?

Edit: Jag hittade en sida med mehter-musik. Låten jag syftade på heter Yinede Sahlaniyor. Här är sidan: http://www.osmanli700.gen.tr/mehter/

[Oceanic815]

Nedan står lite om språkets tillkomst och hur arabiskan och persiskan togs bort och latinbokstäver infördes:

Turkish Language, national language of Turkey, spoken also by Turkish minorities in Central Asia, the Balkans, and the Near East. Closely related to Azeri and Turkmen, Turkish is the most widely spoken member of the Altaic language family. Modern Turkish is descended from Old Anatolian, the language brought to Asia Minor by the Seljuk Turks in the 11th century. Old Anatolian developed into the language of the Ottoman Empire, which was founded about 1300 by Osman (Arabic 'Uthman, hence Ottoman), a regional chieftain. Over the centuries as the Ottoman Empire expanded over much of the Middle East and Eastern Europe, Ottoman Turkish, also known as Osmanli, borrowed numerous Arabic and Persian words and constructions. The language was written in the Arabic script.

Major language reforms took place after the creation of the Republic of Turkey in 1923. The Roman alphabet, in which English is written, replaced the Arabic script for writing Turkish in 1929. The spoken form of Turkish, which differed from the more formal, written Ottoman Turkish, was adopted as the national language. In addition, a concerted effort began to remove the foreign words that had entered Ottoman Turkish and replace them with Turkish-derived words. Källa: Encarta Deluxe

http://www.osmanli700.gen.tr/mehter/ är faktiskt den källa jag själv hämtade låtarna ifrån, vet inte varför jag inte nämnde det men kanske för att sidan är på turkiska och risken fanns att du inte skulle förstå innehållet mm. Nu märkte jag att dem har en liten historia på engelska iof men ganska sammanfattande i jämförelse med: http://www.ottomansouvenir.com/Music/Me ... y_Band.htm

Ottoman Mehter music, which for centuries accompanied the marching Ottoman army into battle, still echoes in that of drum and zurna - an oboe-like woodwind instrument with seven holes above and one below - which are a part of folk culture all over Turkey. Mehter music was a symbol of sovereignty and independence, and its ardent sounds instilled the soldiers with strength and courage. The rousing songs and crashing sound of the great kös drums were at the same time capable of unnerving the enemy on the brink of battle, and the Mehter music composers took pains to create works that produced this effect. The Mehter band was established in 1299 when Osman Gazi was made bey or liege lord by the Seljuk sultan Keykubat III, who sent him a tabl (kettledrum) and finial as symbols of rank. However, with the dissolution of the Janissary Corps by Sultan Mahmud II in 1826, the Mehter bands were also dispersed, and not until Ferik Ahmed Muhtar Pasa founded the Imperial Military Museum in 1908 was it decided to revive the tradition. In 1914 it was reestablished as the Mehterhane-i Hakani - Royal Mehter Band - attached to the museum. The band was again abolished in 1935 by then minister of defense Zekai Apaydin Bey, only to be reformed in 1952 as an institution of historical interest attached to Istanbul Military Museum. Today the band performs several times a week at the museum, and at certain official ceremonies, and is a reminder of former Ottoman glory. The band has its own distinctive marching step, whose rhythm is that of the words, ‘Gracious God is good. God is compassionate’. The mehter band marches behind the commander of the band or çorbacibasi, who wears a headdress known as üsküf. After him to his left and right respectively march the bearers of the white and red standards, the latter with an armed guard. Behind these march nine plume bearers three by three, the ‘plume of attack’ positioned behind the red standard. Then comes the band master in the center, and behind him the çevgâns (jingling instruments in the form of a crescent), zurnas, trumpets, nakkares (small kettledrums beaten with the hands or two sticks), cymbals, davuls (bass drums) and finally the kös drums (giant kettledrums) played on horseback. The mehter band members form a crescent to perform, and play standing except for the nakkare players, who sit cross-legged at the right-hand tip of the crescent, followed anticlockwise by the zurnas, bass drums, cymbals and trumpets. When they march, the band members pause every three steps and turn to right and left in salutation, in a rhythm set by the drums, chanting ‘Rahim Allah, Kerim Allah’ (Merciful God, Gracious God). In former centuries the Mehter band used to play even at night on the battlefield to prevent the camp guards from falling asleep. As well as the instruments already mentioned, a full Mehter band could also include two types of zurna (cura and kaba), kurrenay (a kind of horn with a curved end), Mehter whistle, clarinet-type wind instruments, tabl, tambourine and other percussion instruments.

The Mehter bands were primarily military bands, and those under the command of generals included war drums over one meter in height known as harbî kûs or kös. These were carried on camels, and playing them with sticks demanded great skill. The 17th century writer Evliya Çelebi wrote, ‘Each kûs is the size of a bathhouse dome. They are played on feast day nights and days and their sound is like thunder.’ During performances the kös drums were placed in a line on the ground in the center of the circle of musicians, and when marching they were loaded in pairs onto camels. The drummer rode and struck the drums to his right and left by turn. The kös was only ever played by royal Mehter bands, or in that of the commander-in-chief leading the army in lieu of the sultan when on campaign. Each set of players had a leader known as aga. The leader of the bass drum players was called the basmehter aga, and the master of the entire band was called the mehterbasi aga. All the agas and the çevgân players wore white turbans wound around a kavuk (cap), a red coat over a yellow robe and red trousers, a shawl wound around the waist and yellow leather shoes. The other musicians were similarly dressed, except that their kavuks and coats were dark blue.

As the Ottomans advanced westwards into Europe, many elements of Mehter music influenced western composers, particularly in the 17th century. Later Mozart and Haydn composed music inspired by Mehter music, and Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony’s use of the kös, bass drum and zurna in the last movement is another striking example. Mozart, Bizet and many other composers produced ‘alla Turca’ pieces. The military Mehter bands symbolized the sovereignty of the Ottoman state, and their powerful stirring music had a spirit which we can still appreciate today when listening to the museums Mehter band playing this sound out of the past.

Tycker det här citatet är bra också och svarar nog ett "Ja" på din fråga

spelade alltid Mehter-orkestern vid drabbningar?

Most striking is the mehter— the military band of booming kettledrums, clashing cymbals, brass, and piercingly nasal shawms sounding like a swarm of angry oboes. "When they pass all playing at the same time, the noise of them presses men's brains out of their mouths," reports one survivor. This Ottoman innovation, the marching military band, strikes terror when it signals an assault or parades into a breach as a city falls.

Observers are impressed by the discipline on the march. No harassing the sultan's peasants, trampling crops, stealing sheep. Severy, Merle. National Geographic.

Mehter gav ju samtidigt signal till anfall mm och hade den funktionen med. Nu känns det som om vi spårat ut från ottomanskan till Mehter

mvh//artificial